Our first interview with Ms. Chittu Nagrajan the co-founder of the Resolution Centre at e-Bay and PayPal, Modria.com, ODR world and ODR India, the first Online Dispute Resolution Service Provider in India in 2004.
She served as Head of the eBay and Pay Pal Community Court initiative and has supervised several Masters Students in the United States including Harvard. She is a Regular Guest Speaker at several Universities in Malaysia and India where she speaks on Intellectual Property, Mediation and Online Dispute Resolution. In this interview we ask her questions about the journey of ODR, the foundation of NCTDR, CREK, ODR.com, the transformation of technology from 2006 to 2023 and finally advice for young professionals entering the field of ODR.
Interview Begins
M - Good morning, Chittu Ma'am, and thank you for taking the time to come here. So this is the first edition of our interview with ODR experts such as yourself. Now before I begin, I'd like to give a brief introduction to everyone about you. Well, Chittu Ma'am, I know you've been a pioneer in the world of ODR, from co-founding the Resolution Center with eBay and PayPal to developing Modria, to developing NCTDR, ICODR, working on all these different big projects and now developing CREK and ODR.com. All of these are things that one looks up to. For anyone in India looking to get into ODR, I think you're an inspiration to us all. Thank you very much for coming here.
C - Thanks so much, Mohit. It's my pleasure.
M - In today's interview, I wanna talk a little bit about your experience and journey in ODR. I'm gonna keep it as brief as possible. So with the first question, could you tell us more about your experience with the Resolution Center?
C - Yeah, sure. So if you look at eBay itself, they were the first ones to implement online dispute resolution at such a large scale, way back 20 years ago, and very successfully. There's a lot we learned that is still very relevant today. It was a wonderful journey because we started off addressing a problem for e-commerce disputes. When you have disputes, how do you resolve them and where do you resolve them? Everything is happening online, so there were issues with jurisdictions and lots of things. When we developed the first online dispute resolution systems over there, it had to take care of resolving large volumes of disputes while also ensuring that it was amicable and that people were happy. We had to use technology to automate most of the process, and as you may know, we resolved around 60 million disputes a year, with 90% of them being automated. This was possible because of the systems design and the technology we used. We learned a lot about technology, product management, and other things, which we're still doing today. I owe a lot to the Resolution Center for the experience it taught me in the journey of online dispute resolution.
M - Yes, thank you, ma'am. So from what I'm hearing, you know, one, it does resolve almost 60 million disputes every year, out of which 90% of them are automated, I'm guessing without any human intervention per se. And so when you were developing this, it was also, you know, to think critically about the system design and not just using technology to automate some processes, but to think about it critically and how we can make the system easier with the use of technology. That's definitely very interesting, and I think we should be looking at something like that today as well. The next question I have is about two things. So one, could you tell us a little bit about NCTDR, and then why you needed to develop ICODR?
C - Yeah, so NCTDR, National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution, website ODR.info, and that is the birthplace of online dispute resolution. So the father of online dispute resolution is Ethan Katsh, and he was a director of NCTDR. And, you know, he brought about online dispute resolution way back in the late 1990s. And he formed the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution with a vision that ODR is something which is going to solve most of our access to justice problems. And, you know, so that's the birthplace. This was his vision, and what he did with NCTDR is if you know that it was a concept, right? Online dispute resolution is a concept. He wanted it to actually, you know, have thought leadership over there. How do you develop online dispute resolution with global thinking? And how even to this day, he brought in people from all around the globe who were in the field of online dispute resolution, thinking about online dispute resolution. We were not implementing it at that time, right? So all of us were just thinking about it. We were passionate about it, and every corner of the world, he brought them in. He made them fellows of the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution. I'm one of them. I was probably one of the fortunate ones. And then, you know, we started thinking about, from a global scale, learning from each other how technology can help in this access to justice problem and how online dispute resolution itself can make its presence felt in the global scenario which he has achieved today. But that is what NCTDR is. It is all a fellowship, and it was more of a community, a global community working for the cause of online dispute resolution evangelizing ODR. So that's what NCTDR was. But what happened was, you know, we were evangelizing and, you know, we had. I think a lot, 15 years just evangelizing. Nobody, you know, could even understand that. Nobody was believing in it. But suddenly it all became a reality. The whole world was talking about it. Governments were talking about it. A lot of startup companies, everybody was talking about it. And then we thought, oh gosh, you know, now it's a reality. So now you need some sort of governance, some sort of guidance for all the people. More and more people were coming in, right? To provide that. So where did they go? They can't come to NCTDR. They need to have like a membership organization where they all can be a part of it, and it can be service providers, it can be ODR companies, it can be academicians, it can be students. So let's bring them all under a membership organization where they can have, you know, the guidance where they can go to and learn more about online dispute resolution and also. All about, you know what they've been doing and that's when we formed ICORD, which is the International Council for Online Dispute Resolution in 2017 at the Paris ODR conference.
M - Got it. And I think I've also used and referred to ICODR manuals and guides when I've been starting on my ODR journey as well. That's really wonderful for you to have set this whole infrastructure up for the, you know, future generations to use and build upon. So next question, ma'am, We've talked about the Resolution Center and NCTDR, ICODR now can you tell us a little bit more about your journey with CREK?
C - So I think ODR is something where, it's going to be there with me till I die and I'm so passionate about it and coming into the field, you know very early on, seeing where it's grown and plus, you know, structuring it in a certain way. And also you know, companies, you know, providing the technology for online dispute resolution, right. And so after Modria, which was my previous startup.You know, I was just like thinking, OK, Mordia has done, you know, Modria got acquired. Learned a lot from the experiences from eBay and PayPal from Modria and you know, we realised that technology is super expensive. So we are talking about online dispute resolution serving a purpose, which is access to justice. And here we are talking about technology which is so expensive. So it's not just like really relating to each other, right? So you have to have something which everybody could use. You have to have something where people cannot think about okay, I need to build this or I need technologists. No, it should be as simple as Gmail for an e-mail. It should be as simple as zoom for a video conferencing. When you think about, you know you need to get an e-mail, you need to get a video conferencing, you're all, all what you're thinking about is I'll go get Gmail. I'm not thinking about building an e-mail platform. I'm not building a video conferencing system, right. I get, I just go and get zoom. So that's how it works. So I wanted online dispute resolution technology also to be available like that. So when anyone thinks about doing online dispute resolution technology cannot be a barrier. The systems cannot be a barrier. They should just say, yes, we want to implement online dispute resolution. I'm an individual mediator. I'm an individual lawyer. I have, you know, a technology which is, you know, CREK, which I can go to or let's say that I am an organization, I am a government. I don't have to go and look for anything else. Yes, this is where I will go. This is what I will need. I can just take it and I can use it. So that was the real vision of CREK. The founding fathers of online dispute resolution are Colin Rule and Ethan Kash. So I also decided that, you know, I wanted to pay a tribute to them. I think I am here where I am because of them. So it was more of, you know, a tribute to them and so that's where the name CREK, Colin Rule, Ethan Kash came from.
M - Wonderful. That's that's so I really find that story very interesting and it's so sweet of you to actually, you know pay tribute to your your partners mentors like that. I think you know that's definitely something. It's a very nice story for sure. I'm sure more all of our, you know, the people who are gonna hear this and view this are going to find this surprising and I'm sure none of them know this already. So it's a very fun fact and thank you for sharing with us. So now, ma'am, if I understand correctly, CREK has also shifted on and moved on to something called ODR.com, right? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
C - So ODR.com is you know where we want all of I think the future developments and online dispute resolution for our company which is Colin and myself now you know where we want all of that to live in. Right. And so we wanted to form online dispute resolution odr.com and you know, put everything under that umbrella and you know, correct anyway is you know the technology powering odr.com. And so we're moving everything into odr.com because that can be the global presence for all things online dispute resolution wants to achieve from a technology perspective. So that's what we've come up with with ODR.com and you know correct is the technology powering that.
M - Got it. That's definitely a very strong brand to have ODR.com. Yes, I I see the value in in doing something like that. Now ma'am, you know, just a few questions. Working in so many different organisations, developing tech for so many years, how has the technology evolved from, you know, from 2006 to 2023?
C - It's developed a lot, right? I think, you know, we started off, you know, before it was all C++, PHP, then you have and then it went on to Java, then Python, and now we're talking about AI tools. We're talking about so many things. Even your front end, you know, you have reactors, you have Angular, you have, you name it, you know, every day, you know, it's changing. Every year it's changing. The versions are changing. So even yesterday our platform is built on a different version and we have to upgrade all the versions. When you upgrade all the versions, then again another that's also a difficulty right, when you're upgrading. So technologies changes every single time and we need to keep up with that. Also, there are new ways of us consuming technology. I don't think you know, before I think everybody needed to code, but now it's not that anymore, right? There are lot of things where you know, they just provided to you and all if you know how to use that tool, you don't even know how, you don't even need to code. So it's become so simple, which is great because you know the back ends which are empowering those tools. It's making it easier for all of us to play around with this technology, not having really to code with that. So with that any lay person should be able to drag and drop, should be able to like do whatever they want to without even knowing basic you know, programming language that's where we are moving and AI has AI and the tools powering AI, right. You know, we just talking about ChatGPT but there are many more which is going to come now because of that ChatGPT, right. So how do we consume that? So all we need to know is how to consume it. Rather than hey, what is underneath it or can I code it or whatever. So that promise is great because we don't have to. Everybody becomes like a technologist and technology should not be a barrier to code or something. It should be as easy as writing something correct? Which is an exciting future.
M - Definitely. I think just in my experience, coding or like working with technology was always intimidating because you're unaware of how it how it works, how do you build it, but you know, watching a few videos about how to Use or how to build like a smaller version of customised ChatGPT online and then actually doing it like, you know, opening up that terminal, copying, pasting those codes and just testing it how it works. I think that has really given me the confidence to get into developing you know, technology also. And I really see the values, I see what you are trying to say. Saying connecting to how things are developing today. Last question ma'am. So with your extensive experience in online dispute resolution, what do you have to say? What advice do you have for young professionals, both lawyers and non lawyers who are getting into ODR today?
C - There's so much you guys can do. Do not think about replicating offline practices online. You know, do not go to this age-old methods. I think that is one of the follies of people in the legal system, right? We are always sticking on to how things are done, you know, age-old methods and all of that. But we need to think out-of-the-box. We need to think about solutions. We need to think about solutions for problems in a different way. Right. How do we leverage technology for those type of solutions, for those type of problems? That's what you need to think about, not about you know, just replicating, bringing you know our digitalising systems. See that will happen. But you know with online dispute resolution, the great thing and something which excited me way back in, you know 20 years ago was you know the innovation part. You know what you can do the systems design, that was exciting if I just had to replicate these models of what we're doing over here or over here. No, you know, efficiency, how do you bring in user experience, people centric designs as well as, you know, the younger generation, the problems you're facing or the world you live in is completely different from what we are living in or what we lived in. And you know, the others before us is well, right. So what might have worked for us would not work for you. So you got to think about current ways of how you consume information, how you resolve that information, what you do. So you know, I think one thing for you guys is you got to stick with your generation, Think about, you know, what you can do and how it's going to help in the world you live in, in the tools you use, your presence is more online. So you know more problems are going to crop up over there. How do you resolve that you know without just like you know going out you know to the courts or you know to consumers or even you know if it is to mediation arbitration that's not going to work. So let's think about you know those type of issues and innovative solutions and really transform transforming the way you know disputes are handled and that is. The main premise of online dispute resolution, I think online dispute resolution was created just for that innovation to happen. So that's what, you know, the younger generation really, really needs to think about and focus on.
M. - Thank you. Thank you so much, ma'am. I think it also, you know, makes sense that even though there are so many, I think about 28 or so ODR service providers in the country right now. If I'm correct, I think at least twenty of them are run by people who are, you know well comparatively younger, from the younger generation because this is the need of the hour. We've all grown up looking at these these. You know this this these systems which are not really as efficient as we would have liked for them for them to be and now I think with COVID that push towards ODR became even stronger and more and more people started getting involved in it. So thank you so much Chittu Man for you know, taking our time. I know this has been extremely helpful for me. I hope you know all the other listeners will also find this interesting and helpful. Any any last pieces of advice or words before we conclude this interview?
C - Thank you so much for having me here and I really like what you said. The last one was like 20 startups are all run by youngsters. That is the hope, that is the future. So wishing everyone the very best.
M - Thank you very much, ma'am
Interview Ends
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